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Cageprisoners presents an exclusive interview with Mustapha Taleb, speaking from his cell in HMP Long Lartin. Mustapha has been held for three years without trial, pending deportation to Algeria, where there are grave concerns that he may be tortured or killed. The interview was conducted by former Guantanamo detainee and Cageprisoners' spokesman, Moazzam Begg.



Click here to listen to the audio of the interview.





Moazzam Begg: Assalaamu ‘alaykum.



Mustapha Taleb: Wa ‘alaykum as-salaam.



MB: Could you please introduce yourself to us?



MT: I am called Mustapha, or they call me Detainee Y. My Home Office reference is T1014306. My prison number is TT5432.



MB: Could you just repeat your name again? Your name is Mustapha- ?



MT: Mustapha Taleb.



MB: Mustapha Taleb. So the first question I have for you, brother Mustapha is this, can you tell me your age please?

MT: 38 years old.



MB: OK. And your nationality?



MT: Algerian.



MB: And you’re a British resident – how long have you been resident in the UK?



MT: I come to this country on March 2000. I was granted status and indefinite leave to remain in the UK on the 23^rd November 2001. So I have been a resident in the UK since then, for five years.



MB: And do you have family in the UK?



MT: I was engaged to a Muslim sister here - she is British but after this calamity, after the problem of the detention, she just can’t bear the pressure, and she left me and gone.



MB: SubhanAllah, Allahul-Musta’an, may Allah replace you with something better insha’Allah.



MT: You know this deportation has ruined all the relations, you know.



MB: Insha’Allah I’ll ask you about the family relations after we’ve gone through these questions. When were you taken into custody then?



MT: I was taken into custody on the 15^th September 2005.



MB: And what were the circumstances of your arrest, how did they physically take you?



MT: At the time, I was living in temporary accommodation, it has been provided for the council for homeless. They come at 6 o’clock in the morning. I was asleep. They stormed the building and they broke all the doors, even the other residents’ doors. I was awake only by the big bang on the room door and they jumped straight away on me - I was in my bed - they jumped straight away on me, five or six officers, and then they threw me to the floor and held me down, face down to the floor, and two of them, were stepping with their shoes on my hands.



MB: SubhanAllah.



MT: I was mostly naked. I was just wearing a boxer. They didn’t allow me to put any clothes, they held me down like that and then after a while, an officer come with the Home Office representative and they told me that I have to be deported to Algeria. They didn’t say when or why. I asked them for my medication, it was only on the table, next to the bed, but they refused to give me my medication. I was sick at the time; I start vomiting and I had some problems. They forced me to wear the tracksuit. They didn’t allow me to take anything, no clothing, nothing and they dragged me downstairs to a police van and they kept searching the flat, the room. I don’t know for what.



And then from there they took me to Belmarsh, to the segregation unit in Belmarsh. They took my clothes off and give me this grey tracksuit. I’ve been in this tracksuit til the afternoon they brought me here to Long Lartin.



MB: SubhanAllah



MT: I didn’t have any access to the solicitor or anything. I was so scared it was looking like, how do you say it - rendition. You know, but not a flight, but in a lorry.

MB: SubhanAllah. And when did they first give you a reason for your detention – did they ever give you a reason?



MT: No at the time, they didn’t give me anything. When I come here to Long Lartin, I find the other brothers here and they told me that the deportation all of them were under this act, the deportation act. One of them give me the phone number so I can speak to the solicitor. My solicitor is Gareth [Peirce] by the way. When I spoke to her, she was trying to make me understand but I did understand the case and know the reasons maybe in December 2005.

MB: So it was nearly three to four months before you understood the reason for your detention?



MT: Yes.



MB: SubhanAllah. What laws do you think they were using to detain you?



MT: They are saying, I have a letter from the Home Office in front of me – they are saying, ‘you were arrested under Section 17, Schedule 2 of the Immigration Act 1971. I never read the act or laws, but this is what they are saying.



MB: Can you explain in your own words how these laws have affected how you can receive justice?



MT: These laws… there is no justice. I used to, because it’s a closed evidence, closed court, closed session, everything is closed…



MB: Secret.



MT: The SIAC court, it’s a kind of kangaroo court. There is a Judge and two of his helpers there, and there is the Home Office and the special advocate and my solicitor. I don’t know the evidence, no one knows the evidence against me or that I’m tried for. Only the Judge and the Home Office and the Special Advocate, and I’m not allowed to speak to the Special Advocate. He is supposed to know the evidence but I am not allowed to speak to him and he’s not allowed to speak to me.



MB: And even your lawyer is not allowed to know the evidence?



MT: Exactly, even my lawyer is not allowed to know the evidence, no one is aware of what is going on. And you know, it’s just anything they ask and anything they want, the Judge gives them. The Judge is not fair at all. I know this because I’ve been in court before, I’ve been in the Old Bailey in a case before that, so I know the process I know how judges deal with cases. Even in the Old Bailey, it wasn’t that fair but at least it was better.



MB: At least it’s not secret, closed evidence.



MT: Exactly yeah, and sorry to say, it may seem corrupt., But sometimes I feel that even in my country, even though the system is corrupt in my country, but I feel that there is a bit of fairness in their treatment towards suspects. The problem is what is happening now in this country, I feel like the presumption of you are innocent until proven guilty, now is becoming you are guilty until you can prove your innocence.



MB: Yes, that’s especially true since the anti-terror legislation, it’s true. You’ve never been charged with any crime since your arrest?



MT: I was a free man since 2001 til 2005. In 2003, January 2003, I was arrested for the so called ‘ricin plot’, if you remember the case. I was arrested for this case and I spent 28 months in Belmarsh prison, until I was tried and found not guilty and walked out from the court room, from the Old Bailey front door.



MB: And after being found completely innocent…



MT: Absolutely, I wasn’t charged with anything.



MB: And then they arrested you after that?



MT: Four or five months after that I was arrested for the deportation



MB: SubhanAllah, that’s amazing. And there’ve never been any allegations that you’ve seen against you?



MT: No, there’s no allegations at all, there is nothing. They are using… they are using, I think they are using because the lost against me they are using it as a revenge. Because they have some problem in my country and I told them this in my asylum application. Because I have a conviction in absentia in my country, they are using it against me because I have this absentia and because I was involved in the ‘ricin’, even though I was cleared, they keep saying I am a terrorist suspect.



MB: Without any evidence.



MT: Without any evidence, they did not show me any evidence. In the first time, in the court, they start using evidence in the open they were using the evidence from the ricin case. This evidence has collapsed in the court room, in the Old Bailey. The Home Office was suggesting that the jury hasn’t understand the case very well, and you can find even a jury reply in the Guardian, if you give me just two minutes, I was give you the reference of he Guardian.



MB: I remember that clearly, having seen some documentaries on the television, some of the jurors actually coming out against the whole case, the way the whole case was conducted they knew from the beginning that there was no ricin plot at all.



MT: There was no ricin plot. It was just you know, a big joke.



MB: The ricin plot is very famous because everybody knows now that there was no ricin in the ricin plot. Tell me, what are your fears about being deported or extradited and to which country do you fear this?



MT: The deportation is to Algeria and like I told you I have a death sentence in absentia.



MB: SubhanAllah.



MT: And the problem is that if I have to be deported, there is a fear of torture, fear of - there is a lot of things… there is a report recently... even Amnesty have done two or three reports like my case, they done it for me, my name is mentioned there; how the treatment will be and how I will be held in the Security Services detention, incommunicado, without anyone knowing, no one knows what will happen.

MB: Tell me what you think, that Algeria has made these Memoranda of Understanding?



MT: Algeria didn’t make a memorandum of understanding, the UK has the memorandum with Jordan, Libya and Lebanon but it hasn’t got a memorandum of understanding with the Algerian authority.



MB: That means even by that standard, Amnesty International have said that the memorandum of understanding is not worth the paper it’s written on…



MT: Exactly, it’s not worth the paper, even the Algerian don’t have it but they still trying to deport people and the anomaly here with the Libyans, for example they have the memorandum of understanding but the Court in SIAC Refused to deport the Libyans.



MB: Because of Libya’s known use of torture and execution. Of course, we know that Algeria is known of course to practice torture.

MT: It has a long, long story. There is a new report you can ask Gareth for it, a lady from USA called… she make a report, you can ask Gareth for it, it’s just a recent one.



MB: JazakAllahu khaira. I’ll try to speak to her about it. Can you give us any details of any appeals process you may be involved in? I know that you’ve not been convicted of anything, so technically there is no appeals process, because you’ve never been charged but perhaps I think this means more to do with your SIAC representation. Do you think you’ll see any justice in this SIAC representation?



MT: There’s no justice, because, you know, I can’t know the evidence, so I can’t argue with them. I don’t know the evidence, so I can’t argue the case. I don’t know nothing. Even the solicitor can’t do nothing; they are just following the process. What happened I was in SIAC and the Justice, Ouseley dismissed the case, but I got three or four grounds to go to the Court of Appeal. I’ve been to the Court of Appeal. The Court of Appeal didn’t want to give a decision so they sent the case back to SIAC. I’m still stuck between, I don’t know what’s happening now, (whether) I am in SIAC, I am in Court of Appeal, what has been accepted or what grounds have been refused. I don’t know nothing .And even the solicitor can’t give you any straight answer. They are waiting for the judges to come back to them.



MB: So have you ever attended the Court of Appeal, or not?



MT: No, never.

MB: Just moving on a little bit now, what is it like, what’s the regime like at the Long Lartin prison?

MT: People are calling it like Guantanamo, UK’s Guantanamo, and the funny thing, I call it Long Lartanamo. It’s really hard to live in here. I’ve been in Belmarsh and like I told you, for 28 months, and it’s totally different. First, when they brought us here, the place they put us in now, used to be a segregation unit. Then they changed it to a rehabilitation unit. Then it was closed, because it’s claustrophobic and it can’t be for prisoners, so they closed it for long time. Then they open it and name it detention unit. We were not allowed to mix with other prisoners in the beginning, we were not allowed to go to education; we were not allowed to go to the gym, only we have a gym room in here, a small gym room. The treatment, it’s awful, stripsearch… Everything is bad. The visits have to be cleared by the security services and it takes a long, long time. So if someone wants to visit you, when you start telling him about the process and the timing, he’s just scared, you know. And no one comes to visit.



MB: I’ll ask you about those things in a minute. What is your cell like?

MT: The cell is a small room, maybe 3m long and 1.7m large. There is a bed and a TV.



MB: And do you share your cell with somebody or are you alone?



MT: No, alone. We are all in single cells



MB: And how many hours do you spend in lock up?



MT: Lock up? Now they make it more open. But in the beginning we used to spend a long time there. Now you can go to education, it’s more better. Like I told you, the cells are so small and claustrophobic. We don’t have a garden. All the window cells look out to a small yard, a very tiny yard. Everyone, we watch each other.



MB: And do people go out into the yard alone, or in twos, or threes?



MT: Any number, it’s not a problem to go to the yard, because it’s still inside the unit, still inside the walls. We are not allowed to go outside because from the unit to go outside, there are two doors, you have to pass the two doors and for that you have to be searched, and things like that.



MB: Can you describe basically what your daily routine is, what do you normally do every day, you wake up, how does it start?

MT: You wake up in the morning. You have breakfast, then you go to - there is a kind of sitting room, or a pool room, where there is a pool table and a TV. They put recently Aljazeera on the TV. We stay there watch TV most of the time or playing pool. Other people go to Education. But really we are waiting for the lunch. Then lock up. Then they open at 2 o’clock. Then it’s the same regime.

MB: What do you normally do during the lock up time? What does a person do inside the cell, alone?



MT: Most of them have siesta at the lunchtime. After 7 o’clock, the night lock up, most people read books or do their home work from the Education, or people like me do nothing, just maybe watch TV or stay in wandering in their cell.



MB: SubhanAllah.



MT: It’s so depressing. Now if we start speaking about health and the problems here. Even the health care here is so, so slow and most of the people here are suffering from eyesight, insomnia, and to get treatment outside the prison, you have to wait 6-8 months and when you get the treatment outside the prison, when you are allowed to get treatment outside the prison, they took, you know, like, in escape suit, in handcuffs, five or six officers with you…



MB: So that you feel like you don’t even want to go?



MT: No one wanted to go. I did have to get a laser for my eyesight but I refused to go because of this. I told them I prefer to be blind that to go in a hospital in front of the people walking like that.



MB: That reminds me of Guantanamo when they used to take us to the hospital they used to chain everything up, hood over the head, and so in the end nobody wanted to go.



MT: Believe me, brother, I am using five different medications now. I’m suffering from depression, post traumatic stress disorder, paranoia, insomnia, you know - everything you can imagine. And not only me, there are a lot of people suffering from the same signs.



MB: SubhanAllah. I was going to ask you, you already described that because of the regime there it’s very difficult to receive visitors, but do you receive visitors and telephone calls?



MT: I do receive two visitors and believe me they are – it’s not a complaint or something like that, but I have support from the British, the English people, more than I have from Muslims. Believe me, if I tell you that the two people who come to visit me and have gone through the process of clearing are the two jurors in my case, in the ricin case.



MB: SubhanAllah. That’s amazing.



MT: They come once every two months, but at least they come.



MB: SubhanAllah, it’s amazing and it’s terrible. Allahul-Musta’an. And do you receive phone calls and letters?



MT: Letters… a few letters, yeah. Phone calls - you can’t receive phone calls in here; you have to make calls. It’s a business, you have to pay for the calls, and the problem is that in UK there is no problem but calls to our countries, for example people who speak to Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, it’s very, very expensive. I have 10 minutes a month to speak to my family.



MB: SubhanAllah. Can you tell me to what extent are you able to exercise your religious rights? Do you have any problems practising your religion?



MT: In the unit here, we don’t have any problems. Only the problem of the lock up really; when it’s lock up time, you can’t pray with others, you have to pray on your own in the cell. The problem is in Education, since I’ve been to the Education, we are not allowed to pray, even though there is a prayer hall there. It’s not open. They don’t want to open it. When we start arguing with them, they told us that this hall, the prayer hall, is only to be used on Friday, and for the other prayers if you want to pray, you pray in your place in the classroom.



MB: Does the prison Imam get involved in these issues to help you on these things or not?



MT: Mostly the Imam, he is only here on Friday.



MB: Have you suffered any physical or verbal abuse in prison, from the guards or other people?



MT: The shouting and swearing never stopped. Myself, I have never been physically abused but verbally, yes, I’ve been.



MB: And why do they abuse you? What sort of things do they say?



MT: You know, sometimes they are racist, sometimes they swear a lot, using the 'f' word and the 'b' word and we are not used to these words. We try to explain to them, please don’t swear in front of us, we are not a people who accept this way of speaking. Last time, what happened, we were in prayer, we were praying ‘asr, the officer came out of the office speaking to another office, he wasn’t speaking to us, he was speaking loudly to another officer, and he was swearing and…

MB: He felt it was normal to do that.



MT: To them it’s normal, but you can’t accept it... you know, you are in prayer and someone’s swearing.



MB: Of course not, of course not. They need more education, a lot more education.

MT: Exactly, they need re-education.



MB: What has been the reaction of other inmates, other prisoners towards you and the brothers, you don’t get to mix with them much but have you interacted with other prisoners before?



MT: In the beginning, I told you, when we came here first, it was harsh, harsh treatment and harsh life. Even the prisoners were like scared of us, because the system here told them that these people are very dangerous you can’t mix with them. With the brothers here, our Muslim brothers in the prison, it’s ok ma sha’Allah. There is some kind of harmony, connection between brothers in here, al hamdulillah.



MB: Al hamdulillah, good. How often are you given access to your lawyer?



MT: It depends on the lawyer. The lawyer, if he books a visit, he can come and see you any time and every time. But the problem with me, I speak about myself, I didn’t see my lawyer now for 6 months.



MB: Oh my goodness, subhanAllah.



MT: I didn’t see my lawyer for six months nearly.

MB: SubhanAllah, and has she written to you and anything like that?



MT: No. Even if I try to call her on the phone, most of the time, she’s not in the office; she’s at court; she’s in a prison visit. Every time there is... so I become bored. Now I am not calling her or speaking to her at all. I’m just fed up.

MB: SubhanAllah. I didn’t realise it was that bad. Allahul-Musta’an. What would your response be to Long Lartin being called ‘Britain’s Own Guantanamo’, I know you called it ‘Long Lartanamo’.



MT: Lartanamo. It’s real. This government or system here in this country, they are hypocrites. They keep criticising Guantanamo and what is happening in Guantanamo, but the reality of the matter is that there is Guantanamo just next door to them, and no one wants to speak about it.



MB: Well, just to tell you brother even though the criticise Guantanamo, they were completely involved in Guantanamo.

MT: Of course, I know that. That’s why I told you, it’s hypocrisy. They are hypocrites.



MB: Exactly. But in sha’Allah, part of the work that we wish to do, is that we wish to bring pressure onto this government to make them know people are watching them.



MT: In sha’Allah.



MB: You’ve been held in Belmarsh before, is that correct?



MT: Yes, for 28 months.



MB: And how would you compare Belmarsh to Long Lartin?



MT: You know, even in Belmarsh I was most of the day locked up, I was locked up 22 hours a day in Belmarsh but at least, the system there is different. Because I was in custody, they didn’t treat me different from other prisoners. They treat me like a prisoner. I was okay with that. But in here there is like a double standard; they call you a detainee but they treat you as a category A prisoner…



MB: As if you are already convicted.



MT: Exactly, convicted. And when you start arguing about the rules, I am a detainee, you can’t apply this rule upon me they tell you, you are in a high security prison, so we have to apply the rules upon you. When other people, for example the inspectors or some people or the governors come to visit the prison, they told them and showed them the rules that they use with detainees.



MB: So this is again part of the attitude of being guilty until proven innocent.



MT: Exactly. The problem there is what they call MDT, mandatory drug testing, in here. The problem with this unit where we are, it’s free of smoking, free of drugs, free of everything. They are all brothers. They still impose upon us the MDT and to do the MDT you have to be strip-searched, and give them a sample of your urine, and when you refuse you are taken to segregation and you are punished.



MB: This is almost as stupid as when they want to give practising Muslim brothers the breathalyzer test for driving. They know that we’d never do these things. It’s ridiculous, SubhanAllah. Can you describe what your current physical and mental state is?



MT: Like I said physical, most of the people here are suffering from eyesight, like blood pressure, stress. Psychologically, most of the people - I speak of myself, I am suffering, like I told you from depression, PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder), paranoia, insomnia. I have epilepsy strike. There is a lot of things going on. There is a file, in health care, a big medical file, in Gareth’s office, there is a big medical file made by the independent doctor, and psychologist and psychiatrist.



MB: SubhanAllah. And are you seeing a psychiatrist regularly?



MT: Regularly – there is no regularly in here, in prison. I’ve seen a psychiatrist here two times, sent by Gareth, two people. In the prison, there is a prison psychiatrist, and you can see him when he sends you the slip to come and see him. You are not allowed to go and see him like that.



MB: Ok, and would say that the brothers are all suffering similar types of problems?



MT: Yes, most of them. They are all suffering the same things. It depends on the case of the brother, not his case… there are some brothers here with families outside who are looking to provide for their families from prison, and it’s very hard. I’m single so maybe it’s easier for me than for them.



MB: Yes, yes, SubhanAllah. I know that it must be very difficult on a lot of the families.



MT: It’s really hard, believe me, brother. Wallahil-adheem, how can I tell you? It’s something, even if you saw it, you can’t believe it until you live it.

MB: I agree. Do you know what the response of the Muslim community, what they’ve done for you, towards your case and the case of others?



MT: I didn’t see any support from them. To be sincere, I didn’t see any support from them. I wrote once to a newspaper, a Muslim community newspaper, I don’t remember the name. I wrote a long, long letter, explaining my case, but I didn’t have any response from them at all.

MB: SubhanAllah. And the reality is that most Muslims are afraid of these issues.

MT: Yeah, I can understand that.



MB: And the other issue of course, and this is - and sorry, it’s very sad, that most of you are foreigners and not British nationals, that’s also the other part of the problem. Most of you don’t have big families here, you don’t have relatives here and that’s a big problem as to attitude. But the biggest problem of course is…

MT: Believe me, I told you, even the two people who come to visit me…

MB: The non Muslims.

MT: They’ve been visited by the security services and they’ve been cleared by the security services. They did ask them some questions, some hard questions. In the end, they stand up. In the end, they feel they are doing the right thing. One of them is a lady she told me I don’t care.



MB: And the important, the interesting thing that most people who are listening to this should realise, these people were actually jurors, in the case that was supposed to be against you that they were appalled by what took place that they wanted to do something for the side of justice. As far as your family is concerned – I know you said that your family is not in this country - do you know what the affect of your detention has been on them?



MT: When I was here, I was kind of providing for my family. In Algeria, the people are really poor. They are living on the edge. I was a kind of provider. I have a father who is now 87 years old and my mum is near to him in age. They have no provider; they were counting on me, like we say. It’s seems that I let them down. When I spoke to them on the phone, they start crying, they don’t know what to do. Myself, I prefer to go back to Algeria, even if I get the death sentence I will be executed, I will be more than happy to accept it and not live in this life. The problem is that they will stop the execution and you will stay in prison a life time…



MB: And be tortured…



MT: Exactly. My family can’t bear these things.



MB: Is anybody from your family able to come to visit you at all, is that a possibility, or is it not something you even want?



MT: No one has come. I tried once to send them an invitation. When I was outside I sent the invitation to visit me, but when this case started I told them not to come. I don’t want them to see me here in prison.



MB: Okay, finally brother the last couple of questions I have for you, do you have any messages for any one who is going to be listening and reading this interview?



MT: Just… what can I say, you know? I suppose that this message will be forwarded to the Muslim community. I just want to tell them and ask them and beg them: we are just Muslims like you. We are not different from other Muslims. We have been in here, maybe for the right or wrong reason, but at least help us to get some justice; let people hear about us, what is happening to us, take our message outside to other people, make it wide.



MB: In sha’Allah. JazakaAllahu khaira. There are just two things I’d say to that: first of all, you aren’t like other Muslims, and that’s because you are better than other Muslims, because you are being tested and because you’re having the patience and that’s something I know from my own experience, and I know they are better.



MT: Al hamdulillah, brother. JazaakAllahu khaira.



MB: And the other thing is that our message doesn’t just go out to Muslims. We understand and I know from experience that we can’t expect everything to come from the Muslims, and sometimes in fact we can’t expect anything to come from the Muslims, so we try to get support from wherever there is. But we hope that Muslims’ hearts will get softened by listening to your words in sha’Allah.



MT: Okay, brother. JazakaAllahu khaira. BarakAllahu feek. Just to mention, when I was reading the questions, there is a question what is your occupation before you’d been arrested. I was a bookshop keeper.

MB: SubhanAllah, just like me, just like me.

MT: Just like you. Nice speaking to you, brother. JazakAllahu khair, BarakAllahu feek.